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  1. (Note from Collie: This comment is reprinted from the original posting, with my replies in blockquotes)

    I thought I’d toss in another angle of looking at this, because there’s more to it. I’m not clear what’s meant by ‘in order to elicit a particular response.’ It may just be we’re talking past each other here.

    Keeping a clean house or doing things like putting the toilet seat down, ideally, as part of housekeeping, should be something that has been talked out and agreed upon by the people in question. Now, arbitrarily just demanding, without discussion, that Things Be Done a certain way is certainly controlling. But once an agreement has been made, repeated failure to abide by that agreement becomes something else — absent-mindedness in need of an antidote, and often, a lack of respect for the agreements that one’s made (typically because the person doesn’t see it as a big deal).

    As you’ve probably guessed, I’m not talking about mutually agreed-upon arrangements — those are a basic part of mutual honesty and respect.

    By ‘elicting a particular response’ I mean more behaviors along the lines of conveniently ‘forgetting’ to do something you’ve promised to do; or doing it so shabbily that your partner is annoyed into doing it for you; or carefully leaving just a single piece of toilet paper on the roll so you don’t have to change it since, after all, you didn’t use the last piece; or always having an allergy attack, or working late, at just the time the job needs doing… I’m sure you get the broad idea here by now.

    That’s not cute, or funny, or truly absent-minded — and it’s not honest or respectful at all. That sort of behavior is manipulative, rude, and insulting. Do you (generalized you) really think your partner is that stupid?! And if you wouldn’t like being treated that way, then for heavens’ sake, why would you treat someone you purport to love that way?

    Regarding early Christian attitudes towards marriage and such, I highly recommend Elaine Pagel’s work (if you haven’t read her books already, I suspect you may have) for a more nuanced take on the struggle to define some of those matters in early Christian communities.

    Oh, early Christian attitudes towards just about everything are often radically different than what we’re taught culturally today. Did you know, for example, Jesus is not the only person to raise someone from the dead in the New Testament? I had someone argue with me about that, saying only the “son of god” could do that — until I showed him the verses. I don’t think he was happy about that, although I don’t know why.

    It was, in fact, Pagels and Uta Ranke-Heinemann who initially taught me how singular and rigid our views on Christianity are today, compared to the early centuries of Christianity. Check out Ranke-Heinemann’s Putting Away Childish Things and Eunuchs for Heaven: The Catholic Church and Sexuality for some fascinating research on the Catholic Church’s changing views on, respectively, the Resurrection and sex & marriage.

    I also found John Boswell’s books quite fascinating, although expect to see his work repeatedly slammed with ad hominem attacks (due to him being gay and having died of AIDS), despite his being a Yale historian. In particular, his Same-Sex Unions in Premodern Europe gives a fascinating review of several early Christian saints who’ve had, shall we say, ‘face-lifts’ done on their PR.

    Also, his book The Kindness of Strangers: The Abandonment of Children in Western Europe from Late Antiquity to the Renaissance, while not specifically about Christianity or marriage, does contain some creepily interesting perspectives on the views of the early Catholic Church. I haven’t yet picked up his Christianity, Social Tolerance, and Homosexuality, but I’m looking forward to it. Those early centuries of Christianity appear to have been far more thought-demanding, fluid, and self-awareness-encouraging, in regards to the then-current perception of how one’s relationship with ‘god’ should be defined. I’m sorry we lost that vitality in the religion, to be quite frank.

    So which of Pagels’ books are you referring to? Adam, Eve, and the Serpent, The Gnostic Gospels, Origin of Satan, or Beyond Belief: The Secret Gospel of Thomas? I’m guessing since you refer only to marriage that you mean only the first two. I’ve read them both and found them quite fascinating, in fact. I’ve got the Origin of Satan, and am quite looking forward to reading and reviewing it. I haven’t got the one about Thomas (it’s not due out until May 2004), but I’d gladly read and review it if you had an overwhelming urge to send me a copy! ;) Alternatively, it might be fun for both of us to read and review either of the latter two I mentioned — would you like to do that sometime?

  2. (Note from Collie: This comment is reprinted from the original posting, with my replies in blockquotes)

    Wow. You have brilliant thoughts and brilliant friends; you shed light on the pointless rituals of love as well as the true meaning behind it; and this is one of those web pages I want to bookmark and save and read again when I really am in love, but somehow I know it’ll slip my mind and I’ll have to learn all this the hard way. :)

    Aww, thank you! That’s so kind of you to say. ;)

    Points which specifically caught my attention:

    – Love versus duty. The most powerful female figures in my life are women who have made me express my love through duty, and maybe that’s why today I haven’t quite separated the two concepts completely in my mind.

    Interesting. I’d love to hear how this works out to you.

    – Diamonds. Ack. Just, ack. How… manipulative of the diamond industry.

    Yes. A bit too… calculated to me, to really be that expressive of love, if that makes sense.

    – Mind-reading. Ack, again. You’re absolutely right that it’s all about innocence and diamonds. I’m reminded of how my mother gets mad at my father for never taking her out someplace as a surprise, but then she complains about all the places he’s taken her; she wants it to be a surprise, as long as he’s cleared the details with her first.

    Yes, I’ve seen that too, and still find it incredibly sad they apparently can’t realize they’ll never get what they want through that sort of unwitting deception.

    My apologies for the delay in getting around to reading this – and my thanks to you for sharing it with me. :)

    Thank you for the lovely feedback — and my apologies for taking so long to reply! ;)

  3. (Note from Collie: This comment is reprinted from the original posting)

    Most of what you said about love matches very closely with what I believe, but I would go a bit further… Love isn’t about feeling at all; it’s about doing. Doing for others because you care about what’s best for them and what they want or like, not because you feel you have to (duty) or you think you’ll get something in return (exploitation).

    The feelings we have when we are with or thinking of our beloved aren’t the actual love. They may be lust, adoration, desire, insecurity (due to opening one’s personal boundaries), security (due to being loved), gratitude, etc. But that’s all too complicated, so we say that we “feel” love.

    Love is making coffee for your sweetie even though you don’t drink it yourself because you know he’ll appreciate it. Love is nursing your baby at 2am when you’re so sleep deprived that you can’t think straight because you know that you’ll catch up on the sleep eventually and your baby will have a lifetime of health benefits. Love is helping a friend move because it will make her life a bit easier, and all the other examples you give near the end of your article.

    To put it more succinctly: Love is a verb.

  4. (Note from Collie: This comment is reprinted from the original posting)

    I feel better about not knowing what “limerence” is. I didn’t when we first discussed it, and I didn’t when I read the links in the article. If it’s not in the dictionary, how am I expected to know it? I’m glad it isn’t used a great deal in the article. It is interesting to put the word there.

    You weren’t kidding when you said “You can skip the depressing, realistic part” to read, “the depressing, harsh, realistic part.” Some of the commentary you have put in is very pointy. True, but harsh.

    re: coffee — Bob doesn’t always drink the coffee he makes for himself when it’s hot, why would you expect him to drink coffee you made while it’s hot? =) (He’s the wierdest coffee nazi I know, drinking cold coffee.)

    It’s [the Shelley quote] a good quote.

    God made sex so much fun it’s evil, obviously, to make sure people did it. If it weren’t forbidden, He’d never have gotten teenagers everywhere to do it as often as possible, and that’s what was required at that time, of course. =)

    The consideration of the Biblical marriage being the woman being given to the family is probably more accurate than most people want to think. I wonder how “handmaids” was originally written, and if they were really “junior wives” or some other multiple-wives scenario that modern Christians don’t want to hear about. Part of me can only hope, mostly to watch the Christian squirm, not because I expect or particularly want multiple wives.

    I like the comment about diamonds and smoking. Very true.

    I like (and had a very similar description of) your description of love.

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